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Canceling N12 notice


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 4:05 pm   
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EastRegion................frankly you were lucky to have Mr Fine's response.

I dont think you are aware of the POTENTIAL difficulty you may face. Your tenants will get free legal counsel at the LTB and may get free legal aide as well.

I would follow Mr. Fine's advice, protect yourself.

I dont know if the cash offer is necessary, but if they ask (and can prove legit expenses)............... you are likely on the hook.


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 6:27 pm   
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EastRegion wrote:
You mentioned that my predicament was especially dangerous because the tenants agreed to move out literally 1 hour after I served them the notice. Why is this such a bad thing?

Mr. Fine knows of what he speaks. If the tenants, or their housing activists, feel that they agreed to move because of false pressure tactics you could be made to pay the price. Harry is trying to get you to protect yourself as much as possible. He's at the Tribunal day in and day out, and sees what's on the ground regularly. In this business you hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 7:34 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
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Yea, I understand and again I am sorry for any rude comments. I just want to understand 110% of everything, if that makes sence. I keep hearing pay the price, but I cant seem to understand for what?

I know that if I served them the notice, got them to move out and rented the place back out again I'd be in alot of trouble. I'd probably have to pay one months rent, and moving expenses. But I have cancelled the notice within 2 days of serving it - what else is their to it? Offering to pay for 'costs' is not something I am comfortable with, especially since its only been two days - but again, Mr. Fine mentioned this is especially dangerous - for some reason I cant think of.


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 8:01 pm   
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Joined: February 15th, 2010, 2:36 pm
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Can't you take a hint?

He's giving you some very good advice. It seems to me that there might be some aspects of the system that would see your two days very severely. The severity perhaps against normal common sense. So you play it as carefully as you can. It's just advice, not gospel.

Go for it. Play it the way you want to play it. Roll the dice. If it works out, great. If not, tell us what happened.

Good luck!


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 9:19 pm   
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Try to read between the lines. There is no easy way out for a landlord. The "easiest" card that a landlord can play when they want a tenant out is to send a notice to vacate because they need the apartment for their own use. Its the oldest trick in the book. How many times do you think landlords have used this reason with no real intention of ever moving in? How many times do you think the LTB have seen this happen? If they have a case before them where a tenant has accused the landlord of evicting them under false pretenses, who do you think they are going to believe?

When you change your mind about moving right after getting your tenant to agree you look as guilty as hell. Remember this is a court that is unaccountable to any higher power and is known for siding with tenants. Their only adversary is the Ombudsman. They don't have to prove your intentions, they just hand down the decision.

Personally I think a landlord should only have to give 60 days notice for month to month tenants, no reason necessary but I given the regime we are under I play by the rules.

You can be a test crash dummy if you want, no one is stopping you. You may well slide by. I would never take that risk. Let us know how it plays out.


Last edited by notsokeen on April 26th, 2010, 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 9:22 pm   
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Joined: February 18th, 2010, 2:01 pm
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Location: St. Catharines
EastRegion wrote:
Yea, I understand and again I am sorry for any rude comments. I just want to understand 110% of everything, if that makes sence. I keep hearing pay the price, but I cant seem to understand for what?

I know that if I served them the notice, got them to move out and rented the place back out again I'd be in alot of trouble. I'd probably have to pay one months rent, and moving expenses. But I have cancelled the notice within 2 days of serving it - what else is their to it? Offering to pay for 'costs' is not something I am comfortable with, especially since its only been two days - but again, Mr. Fine mentioned this is especially dangerous - for some reason I cant think of.



My concern is that if you offer to pay expenses that can be seen as admission of wrong doing. At that point you might be in for a lot more then just one month rent.
You could be looking at any increase in rent for 12 months, costs to move cable, telephone, internet, utilities. Plus expenses of movers on top of that. Try quoting movers sometime, they are ridiculously expensive. I was getting quotes closing on $2000 for moving a 2 bedroom apartment from Guelph to St. Catharines.

I still think the best bet is to get ready to prove you intended to move in when you gave the tenants the notice and be ready to reference the redacted order I linked to if needed.

Hopefully the tenants will just move on and never think twice about it.

Good luck.


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 9:24 pm   
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Location: St. Catharines
notsokeen wrote:
Try to read between the lines. There is no easy way out for a landlord. The "easiest" card that a landlord can play when they want a tenant out is to send a notice to vacate because they need the apartment for their own use. Its the oldest trick in the book. How many times do you think landlords have used this reason with no real intention of ever moving in? How many times do you think the LTB have seen this happen? If they have a case before them where a tenant has accused the landlord of evicting them under false pretenses, who do you think they are going to believe?

When you change your mind about moving right after getting your tenant to agree you look as guilty as hell. Remember this is a court that is unaccountable to any higher power and is known for siding with tenants. Their only adversary is the Ombudsman. They don't have to prove your intentions, they just hand down the decision.

You can be a test crash dummy if you want, no one is stopping you. Just let us know how it plays out.



Reading through the redacted acts on the LTB site there are very few cases of T5s. I have even linked to one that is in a similar situation as this.
Assuming any kind of consistency in the LTB then as long as the OP can prove based on a balance of probabilities that he did intend to move in at the time of issuing the termination notice he is fine.

Even more so because most tenants are clueless...


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 9:44 pm   
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I don't think they are clueless at all. There is a huge and expensive support system and most tenants seem to think they can threaten landlords with "the tribunal" (sic).

Most of the cases for landlords are for simple non-payment of rent. Most landlords are unaware of the system they face because it is so unique in Ontario. ..At least small business landlords who can't afford high priced lawyers.

There is a massive industry pushing people to invest. Government is also encouraging investment. Yet, they never let people know about the current rules.


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 Unread postPosted: April 27th, 2010, 9:58 am   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
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So lets just say for a second that I didnt have intentions of moving on but I still served them the notice.

Now, that I cancel 2 days later, I am still at fault for any expenses they have occured in the 2 days (lol), and one months rent? This is just for writing up a piece of paper in 'bad faight'? I am sorry to say, but i disagree with anyone who would ever thing this and throw it out as advice.

Like I've said, if I waited until the last week before the termination date and then told them I wasnt moving in, it would be a diff story. But even though I served them 2 days later and it mite look like I was giving it to them in bad faith, I am not sure how some of you can assume i will be resonsible for expenses...

Hiring a moving company with two guys is usually $60 - $100 per hour. So your looking at $300-$500 max for them to load everything in the truck for you and unload it at your new place.

You guys have to remember that not every single tenant is a extreme profesional tenant. I'd say only 5-10% are in that category and most are just laid back and reasonable. I think you guys sometimes respond with answers on what will happen in the worst possible scenario that can only happen 1 out of 1000 times. Sure its got to be prepared for it, but dont get carried away.


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 Unread postPosted: April 27th, 2010, 11:45 am   
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EastRegion wrote:
So lets just say for a second that I didnt have intentions of moving on but I still served them the notice.

Now, that I cancel 2 days later, I am still at fault for any expenses they have occured in the 2 days (lol), and one months rent? This is just for writing up a piece of paper in 'bad faight'? I am sorry to say, but i disagree with anyone who would ever thing this and throw it out as advice.

Like I've said, if I waited until the last week before the termination date and then told them I wasnt moving in, it would be a diff story. But even though I served them 2 days later and it mite look like I was giving it to them in bad faith, I am not sure how some of you can assume i will be resonsible for expenses...

Hiring a moving company with two guys is usually $60 - $100 per hour. So your looking at $300-$500 max for them to load everything in the truck for you and unload it at your new place.

You guys have to remember that not every single tenant is a extreme profesional tenant. I'd say only 5-10% are in that category and most are just laid back and reasonable. I think you guys sometimes respond with answers on what will happen in the worst possible scenario that can only happen 1 out of 1000 times. Sure its got to be prepared for it, but dont get carried away.


you are hired as our official test pilot for all precarious legal matters. you will be paid in gratitude. you must always report in and advise of outcomes.


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 Unread postPosted: April 27th, 2010, 8:29 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
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will do, what is the pay anyways?

I just served the cancelation notice to the tenants today via registered mail, and called them. They said they are most likely still moving out as they have applied to a couple places they really like. I'll keep ya'll updated.


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 Unread postPosted: April 27th, 2010, 11:12 pm   
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Joined: February 15th, 2010, 2:36 pm
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Location: Florida (FT golfer)
Arnold Schwartzenegger wrote:
I'm with Harry.

If you think he's being dramatic, it's because you will indeed face a lot of drama if you don't approach this situation with an abundance of caution. You can trust in the folks that are litigating this stuff on a daily basis.

All the best to you, you have great support here.

:) Former advertiser

I trust Former advertiser.

We can bicker but let's all be happy that at least we have a nice place to bicker and network.


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 Unread postPosted: April 28th, 2010, 9:02 am   
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EastRegion wrote:
will do, what is the pay anyways?

I just served the cancelation notice to the tenants today via registered mail, and called them. They said they are most likely still moving out as they have applied to a couple places they really like. I'll keep ya'll updated.


you are paid in gratitude with bonuses of approval and agreement, paid at the end of each ordeal. :)


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 Unread postPosted: April 28th, 2010, 9:23 am   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
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Deal. I will keep ya'll updated. Holla.


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 Unread postPosted: April 29th, 2010, 6:12 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
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UPDATE:

Tenants wrote me a lenghty e-mail regarding the cancellation of the N12 notice. To keep it short, they said they found another place and have given first/last months. They want to really stay at my property and will try and get their deposit back under these conditions: they are able to sign a one year lease, instead of month to month and that the 'mold' in the laundry room, and attic are removed by the tenant who works for a mold removal company.

I told them they are welcomed to stay in the house until they find another place and that there is no rush, as long as I get suffecient notice if they do inten to move. I also told them I wont be signing a 1 year lease with them as all my leases are month to month and if there is any harmful mold in the house I will use a company I find, not the tenants.

I believe that they will move out and goto the place they currently have paid for, just waiting on their reply.

So much for being taken to the LTB and having to pay one months rent (or more) plus their moving expenses just for the mere fact that I served them an N12 (in good faith) and cancelled it 2 days after. 1-0 for me and margerat. :P


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