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Canceling N12 notice


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 1:01 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
Posts: 51
I recently served my tenants a N12 notice (i was planning on moving into the unit). The notice gave them 68 days to find another rental, but they called me a couple hours after serving them and said they will be out in a month. I went to the house the next day and got them to sign a statement saying that they would. No hard feelings.

Now, my problem is, I have found out that I will not be able to use the unit for myself. I don't want to give the N12 notice to the tenants in bad faith and have them file a T1 or whatever it is that I didn't move into the house and use it for my own use and cause problems for myself. I am still going to call and ask the LTB about this but was wondering what the best way to go about cancelling (if possible) the notice. The obvious thing would be to send them a certified letter saying that I will not be using the house for myself and the notice is canceled.

Here is where it gets confusing. I want to serve them with a notice of 'persistently paying the rent late'. The termination date will still be the same as the N12. They have agreed to move out already, but i don't want it to be for the reason of the N12 notice.

Thoughts?


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 2:41 pm   

Joined: February 7th, 2010, 1:22 pm
Posts: 94
If the tenants have already agreed to vacate why the need to send them a “late payment “ Notice?


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 4:25 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
Posts: 51
My issue is, if I just 'tell them' and they still decied to leave - what is stopping them from coming back after a couple months and filing a T1 forum saying I have them a N12 notice in bad faith.

I want to have proof that they are moving out that they want to themselves, and not because I seved them the N12 notice.


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 5:13 pm   
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Joined: February 2nd, 2010, 5:08 pm
Posts: 442
Location: Do NOT vote for this man!
HFine wrote:
It's a T5, not a T1, and you could be in a load of trouble.

I don't know why you changed your mind, and it's none of my business as you are not my client, but I do know that a lot of people use N12's when they have no intention to move in, and then find out the trouble they could be in and so they change their mind. In your case, the tenants agreed to move almost immediately after the notice was served, making your predicament especially dangerous.

If you are not going to move in, I would provide them with a letter, in their hand for speed, and then by registered mail, explaining to them your life-change that precipitated you having to withdraw the notice, and advising them that:

You are withdrawing the N12 notice

You will not be relying on the notice and will not be filing an application to the Board

That if they wish to leave without notice, that you will grant them permission to do that by signing an N11 agreement, but with the understanding that they do not have to leave and that you will not be moving in.


Offering to pay any costs they have had by your change of heart (hopefully nothing to this point).


If your reason is phony, and if the notice was crap, it may not save you, but if you legitimately had a change of circumstances, income, job loss, job gain, birth in family, death in family, change in financial situation etc., then you should be protected from a claim by the tenants.

Regards

That is an excellent and thorough answer.


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 5:38 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
Posts: 51
Thanks for the great response Fine. I will do what you suggested, as I was genuinely planning to move in with my fiance. She was told that she is no longer getting transfered to my city.

I do have a problem with this statement though:

"Offering to pay any costs they have had by your change of heart (hopefully nothing to this point)"

1. I will be sending the letter tomorrow, so that will be 2 days after I served them the N12. What kind of possible cost could they occur in that time period. I am assuming its for good faith, but that leads me to my next issue.

2. Whats to stop them from thinking that they can making up costs, or saying they drove 200KM to look at a place and want gas money. By offering to pay for anyything is suicide I think - but I could be wrong.


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 6:46 pm   

Joined: September 12th, 2009, 12:28 pm
Posts: 3003
Location: toronto Burlington Orillia
I wouldnt offer them any money either
and as far as in good faith , you seem to have good faith
just give the notice that you are withdrawing your notice
and will not be filing it
not wordy just a paragraph
no reasn
if they want answers let them take you to court in short they wont
if you are sending another notice for eviction dont mention it in the letter
just file that in a day or so
remeber during the hearing dont wobble
firm the notice was given in good faith and the reason changed
but their non payment of rent was prior and a condition for eviction


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 6:54 pm   

Joined: September 12th, 2009, 12:28 pm
Posts: 3003
Location: toronto Burlington Orillia
HFine wrote:
It's a T5, not a T1, and you could be in a load of trouble.

I don't know why you changed your mind, and it's none of my business as you are not my client, but I do know that a lot of people use N12's when they have no intention to move in, and then find out the trouble they could be in and so they change their mind. In your case, the tenants agreed to move almost immediately after the notice was served, making your predicament especially dangerous.

If you are not going to move in, I would provide them with a letter, in their hand for speed, and then by registered mail, explaining to them your life-change that precipitated you having to withdraw the notice, and advising them that:

You are withdrawing the N12 notice

You will not be relying on the notice and will not be filing an application to the Board

Your a little dramatic and threatening for my taste / predicament dangerous good grief
tone down your drama

That if they wish to leave without notice, that you will grant them permission to do that by signing an N11 agreement, but with the understanding that they do not have to leave and that you will not be moving in.


Offering to pay any costs they have had by your change of heart (hopefully nothing to this point).


If your reason is phony, and if the notice was crap, it may not save you, but if you legitimately had a change of circumstances, income, job loss, job gain, birth in family, death in family, change in financial situation etc., then you should be protected from a claim by the tenants.

Regards



I FIND YOUR RESPONSE A LITTLE DRAMATIC AND PRO TENANTS
predicament dangerous phoney
he filed the notice in good faith and yes things change
he just need to send a note by registered letter and one delivered in the mailbox to cover himself
no offer of money good grief

dont mention any reason


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 8:55 pm   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
Posts: 51
I hate to say this - I really really do - but I think Fine was in a way is advertising himself. Your response was GREAT don't get me wrong, but like margret said it is extremely pro tenant.

You mentioned that my predicament was especially dangerous because the tenants agreed to move out literally 1 hour after I served them the notice. Why is this such a bad thing? Wouldn't it be ALOT worse if they objected to my claim in some way or even worse, I told them I wouldn't be able to move in like 1 or 2 weeks before their termination/move out date?

I asked them if they found a place already or have thoughts about moving prior to the notice and they said not really, but they have been looking here and there and want to be closer to downtown.

Here is what I am thinking. I will send them the letter either tomorrow or tuesday. i will just mention what margret, that things have changed and I wont be moving into the unit and thats it. We have already talked about using their last months deposit for Mays rent, since they are/where moving out. I will wait until May1st and ask them what their intentions are, to move out still (but not due to the N12 notice) because they voluntarily want to - or they want to stay and have to pay rent. If they decide to move out still i will get them to sign a letter saying this and i believe this should steer me very clear of any issues. If they tell me that they want to stay, I will serve them with the late payment notice on the 2nd. Thoughts?


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 10:17 pm   
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Joined: February 15th, 2010, 2:36 pm
Posts: 6499
Location: Florida (FT golfer)
Seriously, you should call the Landlord Self Help Center. They offer free legal advice and you could meet with them.

Of course they are underfunded and understaffed because most of the tax dollars go to tenant groups. The thinking of the NDP/Libs is "all landlords are rich enough to hire a legal team."


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 10:34 pm   
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Joined: February 15th, 2010, 2:36 pm
Posts: 6499
Location: Florida (FT golfer)
Congrats to him.

The Self Help Center is non-profit and funded by Legal Aid. It's not a privately run business.


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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 11:43 pm   
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Joined: February 18th, 2010, 2:01 pm
Posts: 567
Location: St. Catharines
I wouldn't worry about it. You issued the notice in good faith and that is all that is needed.

I will have to find it again but there is a redacted order on the LTB website where the tenant did file a termination in bad faith complaint for this exact reason. The adjudicator found in favour of the landlord.

I have linked to it on this forum before, just need to find it again...

That was easy, not too many T5s...

[link]http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/graphics/285428.pdf[/link]

So looking at that as long as you can convince the adjudicator you meant to move in at the time the notice was issued you should be fine.
of course the adjudicator can do whatever they feel like....


Last edited by Toshido on April 25th, 2010, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Unread postPosted: April 25th, 2010, 11:50 pm   

Joined: September 12th, 2009, 12:28 pm
Posts: 3003
Location: toronto Burlington Orillia
I stand butwhat \i said just send a short letter retracting the notice
no reason
then wait to see if they pay rent
keep all conversations brief with tenants
record them if you are uncertain they mioght twist your words
they might really bne looking for a rental unit
still callin the landlord helpline is helpful for legal advice or ask Temrionatro \
or Skitter is good so are several her for that matter
in short dont [panic


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 1:43 am   
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Joined: October 7th, 2009, 10:39 am
Posts: 568
A little respect and gratitude please.

Harry gave you some good solid advice free of charge. If you think he is pro-tenant, then read some of his articles. If you think he is advertising himself, think again.

I called the Landlord Self-Help Centre a while back and was put in touch with a top notch paralegal who offered me advice and assistance free of charge. Although he has a day job, he worked tirelessly over the course of a few evenings and on the weekend, helping me put together an application for above guideline increase. Apart from my name and contact details he pretty much gave me step by step advice on each part of the application and supporting documents and carefully reviewed it several times. I can't thank him enough. I asked him part way through the process why he was willing to help me like this. His answer was that he really felt for small landlords and the tough predicament we are in here in Ontario. He had nothig to sell me since he is employed full time already. All he got in return was my gratitude.

Did it ever cross your mind that Harry is actually erring on the side of caution to protect you and not acting on pro-tenant tendancies? Hint: you have been to the LTB 3x with this tenant, who is clearly no amateur.


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 9:37 am   

Joined: September 12th, 2009, 12:28 pm
Posts: 3003
Location: toronto Burlington Orillia
I still didnt like the cash give a way and I felt his respoinse was a lttle on the dramatic side
also as a paralegal he knows what you have to pay
and while its probally true the tB is cracking down on the landlord taking back property
we still do it , they really cant stop it
its our rights since the beginning of time
just dont wobble when asked
the ones that lost wobbled
they said they are only moving in for a year
they said they didnt know


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 Unread postPosted: April 26th, 2010, 10:00 am   

Joined: April 19th, 2010, 9:31 pm
Posts: 51
I apolgize for any of my rude comments. The matter of fact is, I am caneling this notice. If they take me to the LTB for some reason afterwards, I dont see how it can play.


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